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admin
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 08:05 am: | 
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On to chapter 4 - the highest numbered chapter yet! |
bassman
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 06:47 pm: |
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Read in the last issue of my T.H. paper that the treatment plant has the go ahead. It said the new holding pond will have a 15 foot high wall around it. Wonder what effect that it is going to have on the South Ave. houses view of the lake??? It also mentioned that there were only two (2) people that attended the meeting when it was approved.
Might be a good sign for Sam to get his Lighthouse Point project before the city fathers again. |
shield supporter
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 10:25 am: |
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I wholeheartedly disagree with your stance toward development on Lighthouse Point Bassman. Its like your from Venus, and I'm from Mars.......or wait, maybe a better analogy (statement of fact) is that you are from L.A. and I am from Two Harbors. I guess that explains a great deal of our differing opinions. |
bassman
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 02:09 pm: |
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My opinion of the entire matter would be the same if I lived in my hometown of Two Harbors, SS. In fact it would not change even if I lived on South Avenue..... |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 06:33 am: |
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Shield supporter - well I'm from Two Harbors and your from Two Harbors - and I wholeheartedly endorse and agree with the idea/concept of developing Sam Cave's property and the whole of Two Harbors.
I'll never give up that dream ~ I've lived here for all of my life, and I recognize that NOW is the time to move forward - we can't live in the past, where we were nothing but a one horse town. Change is good and change is welcome by this citizen.
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Kermit
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 07:53 pm: |
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The frog does not "drink up" the pond in which it lives.
Happy Earth Day to all. |
bassman
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:19 am: |
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There is so much water in the Land of 10,000 Lakes that he could never drink up a pond.... Last time I saw Lake Superior, it also had a lot of water in it.... |
Shield supporter
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 06:57 am: |
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Bassman displays the typical "frontier attitude".
"The resources are unlimited"
"That lake is so big, we can't possibly pollute it"
Time to wake up folks. Did you notice the multitude of beach closings experienced on the North Shore last summer due to high levels of bacteria?
Its been said, today, wars are fought for oil, the wars of tomorrow will be for fresh water. Lets keep ours fresh! |
bassman
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 12:03 pm: |
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"The resources are unlimited"
....What have we run out of so far S.S.?...
"That lake is so big, we can't possibly pollute it"
...Please quote where I said that S.S.!!!!...
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Gandhi
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:11 pm: |
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"Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed."
- Mohandas K. Gandhi
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Two Harborite
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 05:33 am: |
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Shield supporter: What the hell does fresh water and Sam Cave's development have to do with one another?
The topic here is Lighthouse Point. If you were worried about dirty water - where the hell were you and your groupies during the busy working years of U.S. Steel and the DM & IR?
Get a life!
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fritz
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 07:53 am: |
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The phrase is "Environmental Impact" Two Harborite. That's what they have to do with each other. With the exception of the name calling this has been a very entertaining thread. I'm on the fence but generally in favor of developement as long as it fits in the framework of a long term plan. I just don't see a long term plan. I don't like seeing an expansion of the water treatment facility (and I use the term loosely) that close to the lake, which gets back to the fresh water issue. Are there any published drawings or architectual elevations showing the projected views from south avenue? |
Shield supporter
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 08:53 am: |
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Development equals pollution, plain and simple.
Water pollution
Air pollution
Noise pollution
Light pollution
Traffic pollution
Land pollution
Pollution pollution etc....
Two Harborite has requested to be educated about developments impact on water quality, so lets start with that one. Run-off pollution is just one way development negatively impacts water quality. We all know how dirty the air is downtown, especially around Agate Bay. This dirt (pollutants) come from a variety of places, taconite dust, exhaust from the trains, ore boats, cars, coal burning power plants in North Dakota, etc.... Lighthouse Point left in its natural state (soil, vegetation) serves as a good filter for these pollutants.
A developed Lighthouse Point replaces filtering vegetation and soil with acres of impervious surfaces (roads, rooftops, parking lots) These impervious surfaces collect this dirty air over days and weeks. Every rain event then flushes these pollutants straight into the lake in a very concentrated form. Of particular concern are the areas on the east side of the point, because development there has no option but to flush straight into the lake right next to our water intake. The areas of the point that shed to Agate Bay are still less than 4000' from the water intake. All Two Harborites should be concerned and aware of these issues. For further reading on run-off pollution from development try http://www.consciouschoice.com/issues/cc084/nonpoint.html
or http://www.vbco.org/planningeduc0052.asp
Certainly Lighthouse Point development alone will not pollute the "Big Lake", but the cumulative effect of the rampant development of the North Shore will.
More to come.
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Two Harborite
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 08:00 pm: |
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Same old dog and pony show Fritz and Shield. The tail is wagging the dog. What a bunch of garbage.
Long term plan - you people won't even give Sam Cave an opportunity to get his project off the draft table. Long term plan, my foot.
You worry about his project and yet where were you when the ore boats and railroad dumped raw waste sewage in the harbor of the past 50 plus years, and the City of Two Harbors itself had it's over flow from the sewage plant along the beach north west of the boat landing and parking lot? Ever notice the small white mice (Tampax) laying on the beach. Did you run and complain about that? NO!
You people amaze me at how stupid some of you are. All these other activities and no one complained. Taconite dust, oil, gasoline, garbage..speaking of garbage - who's down there from your group policing the youth of Two Harbors that drop countless dollars of McDonald's containers or Hardee's containers or broken beer bottles or beer cans? Come on, lets evaluate all the issues.
Someone comes along and wants to IMPROVE our city and make it better - and we pee and moan - this is so sad. Give someone a chance, before you stomp his ideas out.
Same old mentality of Two Harbors. Do nothing and become nothing. Live in the past and die as a community.
Certainly Lighthouse Point development alone will not pollute the "Big Lake" and neither will anything else.
This community has nothing because it does nothing. Look at the infra structure of our city. Water lines, sewer lines, sidewalks, streets, alleys, no paved streets in the Segog area - just to mention a few things.
Think people, open your eyes and think. We need to improve our infra structure and new developement and new tax dollars will help that.
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Shield supporter
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 09:35 pm: |
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I love this town. I've lived here over 40 years and I wouldn't live anywhere else. I love the small-town character. I love the people. I see our town thriving and a place a lot of people would love to live in. To see your town as just streets or sidewalks is so shallow. There are some in dire need of repair, thats true. I hope our leaders create a responsible plan to deal with these issues and stick to it.
I love the fact we have this jewel of a park called Lighthouse Point right in our backyard. I walk there daily. I don't have to get in my car and drive somewhere to enjoy a little piece of tranquility with nature. Me, and everyone else in town can walk there in less than 10 minutes. It adds a great deal to the quality of my life, and everyone else I meet along the trail. Beautiful streets and sidewalks don't do much for me. We'll get them fixed up. Not overnight, but it will happen. Duluth has a lot of street problems too. Why hasn't their development filled their city coffers to fix their street problems? Because development costs nearly as much to create and maintain as they bring in! Developing Lighthouse Point isn't going to fix our streets.
The developer of Lighthouse Point does not want to improve our city, he wants to get rich by exploiting our resources. Remember, when he was campaigning for the zoning change, his vehicle was sporting a banner that said "lets grow Two Harbors". How quickly that came off when he didn't get his way. He packed up his office and apartment and moved out of town. He's not looking for a city to save. Some people can spot a wolf in sheeps clothing, some people can't.
I pity Two Harborite in a way. He seems to be a miserable person, who has led a miserable life in a miserable town, only because thats the way he wants to see it, not because thats the way it is. |
bassman
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 11:31 pm: |
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I guess the way you want to face up to things in this issue S.S. is to call people names. Too bad you have such a closed mind to the issue.
I can only hope and pray that Sam's project will get under way real soon. Lighthouse Point is not such a nice place as it is now and I think it will be a lot better when Sam completes his project.
By the way S.S., you didn't mention how often you go down there and pickup all the garbage left around the parking lot!!!! |
Shield Supporter
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 07:16 am: |
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As a matter of fact Bassman, I've picked up about 8 bags of garbage thus far this spring. This past Saturday, all the canisters there were plump full! The city needs to do a better job emptying those canisters. Its looking better, but there is more work to do.
By the way Bassman, how is it you can tell from southern California that Lighthouse Point is "not such a nice place". When is the last time you were there?
You are right, namecalling is inappropriate. I'll try to refrain. Don't tell me to "get a life". I've got one, thank you! |
TH'er
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 09:13 am: |
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Quote from Shield Supporter: "The developer of Lighthouse Point does not want to improve our city, he wants to get rich by exploiting our resources."
I have to agree with this point, but wouldn't it be nice if we could all benefit from Cave's ambitions?
I am favor of some development. Pork (or Port) City Hill seems to be an excellent location. I am beginning to lean against further development of Lighthouse Point. I have found myself spending more time down there lately, and I certainly enjoy the quiet and peace down. Perhaps some development in the old coal dock and coal storage area, but the point is nice the way it is.
I must admit to still being irritated with the railroad for the way they unloaded the whole parcel, and with the City for not finding a quick, creative way to obtain it, but I guess I should just get over that.
Shield Supporter - kudos to you for the trash pickup. Thanks. |
webman
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:27 pm: |
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Just to keep it available, I am re-posting the email address for Sam Cave.
edcavesonsinc@yahoo.com |
StreetWize
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:27 pm: |
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TH'er - I agree. I think that everyone should spend just 30mins walking around the Lighthouse Point area. It has a lot to offer without additional developement. I think a marina might be a good fit. Let Sam develop the Hill.
The DM&IR is anything but local. The CEO over the last few years was brought in to cut, cut, cut. If he thought it was extra, it was cut or sold. |
webman
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 07:56 pm: |
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http://www.greatlakesdirectory.org/mn/062303_great_lakes.htm
Here's a link to another story I just ran across. It is almost a year old now, but still interesting. |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:45 pm: |
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Shield supporter and TH'er...Have either of you ever met Mr. Cave and sat down and discussed his plans for his development project?
I dare say NOT. If you had, you would not make such foolish comments as, "The developer of Lighthouse Point does not want to improve our city, he wants to get rich by exploiting our resources."
I love how you people can ridicule and put down someone you have more than likely never met nor discussed his plans with. Sad.
No Shield, I'm a happy professional male person who has lived in the community for all of my life. It's good at times to be the devils advocate!
Better yet, it would be good to see Two Harbors move forward to become a better community than it is today. I for one will utilize all of my efforts to promote Mr. Cave or any other similar person who wants to develope and improve Two Harbors. I'm for progress, I'm for jobs.
I will not stop my efforts until those who are in opposition are defeated.
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Alabama
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:46 pm: |
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"So let's leave some blue up above us.
Let's leave some green on the ground.
It's only ours to borrow, let's save some for tomorrow.
Leave it and pass it on down"
Chorus to "Pass It On Down" by the country music group "Alabama"
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bassman
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 12:31 am: |
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"By the way Bassman, how is it you can tell from southern California that Lighthouse Point is "not such a nice place". When is the last time you were there?"
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First off S.S. let me thank you for your efforts to pickup the trash left there by those that just don't care.
As far as when I was back to my dearly beloved home town, it was in 2002, 2000 and a number of years before that before my Dad died. Each time I would come home, I would always go down to the Lighthouse Point and watch the ore boats come in. Loved to listen to their blasting on the horn and brought back many childhood memories. And yes, I was alway disappointed in all the trash left about.
I was born in 1932 in T.H. and remember going down to Lighthouse Point when the fish shacks were there and getting a few smoked ciscos to enjoy. It would be nice to be able to come back and see that again, but that is not going to be. So I think that if Sam can get on with his developement, it will be a better place than it is now, for I feel that he will see that his property and investment will stay clean for everyone to enjoy. And if I am wrong on this matter, I would be glad to supply you with a life time of free beer at the lodge of your choosing. And you can take that to the bank.... |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 05:34 am: |
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Bassman some day they will all wake up and realize the error their thinking and ways!
Have a great day.
From the Happy Professional Life Long Resident of Two Harbors aka Two Harborite |
TH'er
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 07:29 am: |
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Oh come on - Two Harborite. I almost always appreciate the points you make, but surely you don't think Sam Cave bought Lighthouse Point and all the other property because he felt like being a civic do-gooder. Of course he bought it to make money with!! Hello!!! He is a developer, NOT a charitable organization! But did you not read the rest of my post? I think that we, as a community, may also benefit from Sam's financial ambitions. I did not say that his probable desire for a profit was a BAD thing. I did not riducule or put him down either. "I love how you people can ridicule and put down someone you have more than likely never met nor discussed his plans with. Sad." You are painting with a pretty broad brush with that statement. |
StreetWize
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 08:06 am: |
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Two Harborite - so what business in Two Harbors do you own? I think you want jobs, jobs, jobs...at any cost, to save your own bottom line. |
fritz
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 03:06 pm: |
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I was just looking at the new link to the Shield page and was wondering what the actual planned height of the condos are. There are a couple of artist renderings and one shows an example 35' tall (and it looks nice) on the power plant side but the one for the bay side (using the SUVs in the picture as scale indicators) look to be around 60 feet high. |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 05:31 pm: |
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TH'er, yes I do. After seeing his and another gentleman's drawings of what the lake front in Two Harbors could be (for the entire community) - Mr. Cave could indeed be an excellent "civic do-gooder" as you say.
Think about the increase to our local tax base from the properties that will be developed and constructed upon. Of course that would be of no benefit to anyone, now would it?
What I find very interesting is that for the first time in over 50 years - a person, yes, Sam Cave is interested in Two Harbors. He wants to see our community grow, our tax base increase, our infra-structure improved (as he told me just the other day). Of course that would not benefit our community now would it?
We don't need better streets, or better sidewalks, or better water lines of sewage lines. We don't need any of those things, now do we?
I think we should just say no to Sam and let our community continue to flourish and grow.
We should save the community for the future.
You know something, people said that back in 1960, and here we are in 2004. What are we saving it for? No one?
StreetWize, my profession is not your business. But jobs and economic growth are important, if this community is to thrive at all. We are not the mecca of industrial or commercial businesses.
I drove up the north shore last week and found that our neighbors to the northeast in Silver Bay have built a nice new AmericInn motel. Upon reading their web site, I see it has 61 rooms. Great addition. A new harbor was built up there a couple years ago. Hmmmm, I wonder - do you think they are trying to improve their community. I sure do.
Now what's wrong with Two Harbors. The old ostrich head in the sand problem I would say.
I hope this community and city council thinks twice before it really trys to shut the door on opportunity.
Many times opportunity only knocks once!
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smiley
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 09:23 am: |
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Opportunity may knock only once, but temptation leans on the doorbell... |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 08:45 am: |
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Ya, so why not answer the door? |
Shield Supporter
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 07:23 pm: |
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response to Two Harborites message dated April 29, 2004 - 05:31 pm
TH'er, yes I do. After seeing his and another gentleman's drawings of what the lake front in Two Harbors could be (for the entire community) - Mr. Cave could indeed be an excellent "civic do-gooder" as you say.
Your opinion. You are entitled to that.
Think about the increase to our local tax base from the properties that will be developed and constructed upon. Of course that would be of no benefit to anyone, now would it?
Yup, it would be nice to increase the local tax base. The annexation of the Superior Shores expansion (80 million$) will help a great deal. Why not annex the Pork City Hill development? That development will be at least twice the size of the proposed Lighthouse Point development and thus twice the revenue stream for our city. Why not develop the Van Hoven Park area too. Develop the area between there and the existing downtown. Keep the business district connected to the business district so the old downtown will prosper too. These ideas will grow our town and preserve the point.
Win win!
What I find very interesting is that for the first time in over 50 years - a person, yes, Sam Cave is interested in Two Harbors. He wants to see our community grow, our tax base increase, our infra-structure improved (as he told me just the other day). Of course that would not benefit our community now would it?
Personally, I don't think Mr. Cave cares much about Two Harbors, beyond the point that we are his vehicle to riches.
We don't need better streets, or better sidewalks, or better water lines of sewage lines. We don't need any of those things, now do we?
We do need these things. What we don't need, is to exploit the best natural resource this town has in order to get them.
I think we should just say no to Sam and let our community continue to flourish and grow.
No, I think we should direct Mr. Caves ambitions towards the areas we want developed. A city does not need to own the land in order to control how it is used.
We should save the community for the future.
Especially those irreplaceable parts of it.
You know something, people said that back in 1960, and here we are in 2004. What are we saving it for? No one?
I see hundreds of people per day enjoying the lake, trails, wildlife and tranquility of Lighthouse Point. Some of these people are tourists, some are residents. All help support this town in one way or another. There is a substantial economic benefit to preserving open space, parks and trails.
StreetWize, my profession is not your business. But jobs and economic growth are important, if this community is to thrive at all. We are not the mecca of industrial or commercial businesses.
If we can grow smart, we can be the town that everyone wants to live in. The new school is a good step. The preservation of our waterfront and our urban forest is a smart move!
I drove up the north shore last week and found that our neighbors to the northeast in Silver Bay have built a nice new AmericInn motel. Upon reading their web site, I see it has 61 rooms. Great addition. A new harbor was built up there a couple years ago. Hmmmm, I wonder - do you think they are trying to improve their community. I sure do.
Did that motel replace or impair any highly used public space? nope. That motel didn't need to occupy or displace a park, or consume the choicest piece of real estate in Silver Bay either. Thats smart growth. Develop the places you want to develop, and preserve the places best left preserved.
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69in71
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 03:49 am: |
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If we want nothing on Lighthouse Point - why are we allowing a million gallon, open air, cess pool to be blasted into the area? Beaver Bay had to go back up over the hill to install theirs. Two Harbors puts there feces within smelling range of a proposed marina? Within a stones throw of the nature trails that exist? That's good old Two Harbors logic!
How many feet of bad sewer lines are going to be under the new blacktop that gets installes this summer? I know the head of the sewer department has advised fixing the sewers and then the roads - does nobody listen?
At least Sam Cave's project on Lighthouse Point would have new sewer lines that would not contribute to the rainy day infiltration and would increase the winter eficiency? Why can't efforts go towards developing a plan that would neccesitate the appropriate shrubbery/trees for a decent barrier to separate the trails and the buildings. |
smiley
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 09:33 am: |
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are you kidding me?! build on the point just because sammy's project would meet current codes? nice 75ft palm trees should do the trick for a barrier. |
progress is good
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 01:38 am: |
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Maybe the new gentleman's club going in at Burger King will take everybody's mind off Lighthouse Point. I see they are looking for dancers. |
Progress sweet progress
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 10:22 am: |
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progress are you serious...I will laugh my ass off. If its true you all have the tree huggers to blame for helping put Burger King out of Business over trees. |
whats up
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 11:46 am: |
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The Hwy sign at the old Burger King says:
Dancers needed call 310-4740 |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 06:24 pm: |
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Well there is your opportunity! :-) |
tree hugger I guess
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 09:38 pm: |
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If its true you all have the tree huggers to blame for helping put Burger King out of Business over trees.
Who exactly are the tree huggers? Are they:
citizens who cared about the aesthetics of their towns entrance?
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Jack
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 11:36 pm: |
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So how do the tree huggers feel about the aesthetics of a strip joint being the town entrance? |
bassman
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:08 am: |
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"So how do the tree huggers feel about the aesthetics of a strip joint being the town entrance?"
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Let's hear from all those that oppose Sam's developement of his Lighthouse Point. How do you feel about the replacement of Burger King, if it is true!!!!!!! |
webman
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 06:33 am: |
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Driving by there this morning, I see the phone number and "Dancers Wanted" has been removed. |
T�re
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 09:45 am: |
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Let's hear from all those that oppose Sam's developement of his Lighthouse Point. How do you feel about the replacement of Burger King, if it is true!!!!!!!
I wouldn't welcome it. Would anyone who takes any pride in his community applaud such an establishment to welcome visitors as they enter our town? I think not. I don't think townsfolk would split on this issue according to their stance toward Lighthouse Point either. Its quite a different issue.
I think the rumor is false. My guess is the ad is a prank played on our town by a disgruntled developer. He should be thankful he has a scapegoat in the townsfolk, in that he doesn't have to accept responsibility for his failed business, he can shed the blame onto us.
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swanky
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 10:02 am: |
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It wasn't a prank. A few people I know called the number just to see what it was and the guy on the other end really was looking for dancers but wouldn't say for where. Not sure why it was put up on that particular sign however. |
hugger
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:50 pm: |
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I interpret the label tree hugger as a derogatory term, like nigger or queer.
If the meaning were other, please explain. |
DOM
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 02:02 pm: |
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what kind of dancers? |
Mr. PC
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 03:54 pm: |
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Nature loving-Homosexual-African-American Dancers will be entertaining the citizenry and passers-by in the fair city of Two Harbors.
Mr. Politically Correct |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 05:12 pm: |
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tree hugger I guess - Remember the owner of Burger King...OWNED THE TREES!..By vittue of that fact, he could do what he darn well pleased. (Exception-those that may have been on MNDOT Right of Way) |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 05:22 pm: |
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*virtue |
I'm One
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 09:17 pm: |
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People of color exist everywhere. |
NatureLovinHomosxlAfrcnAmrcnDncr
| | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 12:32 am: |
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I actually did hug a tree on at least one occasion after returning to the TH area from an area devoid of trees. I was way up on State Rd 2 (way past the hospital and Big Noise and such), and came to a place of VERY LARGE white pines. It had been some time since I had seen a larger tree, especially ones of that magnificent stature, so all I could think to do was give some of them hugs. It was rather embarrasing in a sense, but since that time I can understand at some level a tree hugger's sentiment. On another level, I wondered about how much fun it would be to whip out the well sharpened Husky, fire it up, let 'er rip, and holler, "Timber!" I can hear the trunk cracking now... |
Shield Supporter
| | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:21 am: |
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Two Harbors has conducted 4 waterfront development plans over the past 20 some years. 1978, 1991, 1998 & 1999. None have contained a developed Lighthouse Point. By any account, Sams plan is "unplanned development". Sams plan never showed a marina. I think I know why. The marina will split the waterfront in two. Sams plan does nothing for downtown development. A better plan is to develop lodging to the north of the marina. Develop retail space below the trains. Build a restaurant at Van Hoven Park. Offer incentives for businesses on 1st ave to develop the waterfront facing sides of their buildings. These locations and types of developments will truly benefit the downtown. It will keep traffic areas in the places designed for traffic. It will preserve the point as a public recreational area. |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 07:22 pm: |
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Four (4) waterfront development plans have come and gone - that was in the PAST. Things have changed - the railroads land is now owned by a private party (Sam Cave). This is a new page in history.
It's about time Two Harbors breaks away for the no, no, no, negative, negative, negative - mentality. Let's try stretching out our arms and opening them up to something new - beside no, no, no, negative, negative, negative.
We've tried that here in Two Harbors for years, and it has not worked. Community is a good thing. Who does not yearn for love and belonging? Who is immune to the existential anxiety of separation and alienation? Who can survive long as an island onto oneself?
Nobody! Neither will Two Harbors if we don't start to work together for the entire community. |
Shield Supporter
| | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 10:07 pm: |
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Two Harborite. Are you reading the posts here? Nobody is saying no to development here, its come down to a matter of where. Two Harborites want it to happen where it will serve the most amount of people the best. I am simply trying to illustrate that for over 20 years, Two Harborites (with the apparent exception of you) have wanted development connected to the existing business district downtown and the park and rec district at Lighthouse Point to remain whole.
You say Neither will Two Harbors if we don't start to work together for the entire community.
So how about it Two Harborite? Lets work together. For the entire community like you say. For the existing downtown business people, for the nature lovers, for the tourists who come in on the train, for the boaters at marina, for the walkers on the Sonju Trail, for the boat watchers at the breakwater, for the Two Harborites who are unborn or too young to have a voice. The alternative I continue to lay out is reasonable and is the best win, win scenario. Stop being so bull-headed. You are being very selfish by harping on Lighthouse Point as the only place to develop downtown.
We aren't that far apart. We aren't saying no to Sam Caves development, we are saying no to his choice of location.
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StreetWize
| | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 10:42 pm: |
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I agree S.S.!!! |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 05:52 am: |
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Shield Supporter:
What do you mean "Two Harborites want it to happen where it will serve the most amount of people the best."
Have we forgotten about the "bundle of rights" inherent in the purchase of land in the United States of America? Mr. Cave owns the land, he has certain inherent rights. Your talking about a select group of "Two Harborites" I don't think your talking about the majority - by a long shot and your sure not talking about me.
I dare say if this was put to a vote - Cave would win hands down.
You and your group are going to pay Mr. Cave the same dollar value for what he purchased?
I am more than willing to support development - but not at the expense of Mr. Cave or any other citizen who purchases land and has rights.
This is a case of the tail attempting to wag the dog - and I'll never support that concept. What I will support is a VOTE of the people in this community. I'm sick and tired of a select few people thinking that they will direct this community's future. If there is a vote and the people say NO by more than a simple majority - then I will give in to their wishes.
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StreetWize
| | Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 11:14 am: |
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Then let us vote! I vote NO! |
Progress Sweet Progress
| | Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
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At this point if I was Mr. Cave I would put up fencing around the entire property with signs that say No Trespassing. Then no one would have access to the trails or water front except those he invites. Two Harborite is correct the property is Mr. Caves fair and square. He has bent over backwards to try and make everyone happy. The sad trueth is that you can't make everyone happy.
The lighthouse point supports managed to gather ONLY about 7,000 dollars to save the point. Which is a far cry from the value of the property. So Two Harborite is correct in his observation that not as many people support non development as the shield people think.
I say develop the property and this conversation is getting really old. |
bassman
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 01:42 am: |
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PSP, You said a mouth full with that statement. If I was still a resident of T.H., I would be at every City Council meeting and putting on every and all pressure in my body to get them to make a decission in this matter. It is just rediculous that it is has gone on this long.
I think if I were Sam Cave and all the hoops that have been thrown up, I would think about doing the same thing as you mentioned and see how the good ole few town folk who oppose his project would feel about the fence. But, I think Sam is above that and is only trying to get his project off the ground and help the town of Two Harbors get back in the 21st Century. |
smiley
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 03:52 pm: |
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rope it off then. then we will see where that gets sammyboy. |
Progress Sweet Progress
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 07:01 pm: |
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My point is that nothing seems to be good enough for those in the lighthouse point group. I would tell them to raise the money and purchase the property and then they can make it their own little sanctuary. Then they can spend the money to keep the property up and maintain the lighthouse building. Put then I remembered that their best effort only raised $7,000 toward and estimated 1 million plus cost to purchase the property. So that's out of the question.
So what is the answer to this topic that seems to have no end. COMPROMISE I know that is nasty word but until those who would like to see us all go back to horse and buggy learn what that word means this area will continue to be behind the economic power curve. |
Shield Supporter
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 08:22 pm: |
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What do you know about "those in the Lighthouse group"? All we want is to uphold the comprehensive plan and every waterfront development plan that came prior to that. These documents are the voice of the people. They were all created via public input. If you chose not to get involved, thats your choice. Those that did get involved and took an active step toward planning their towns future resounding stated they wanted Lightouse Point preserved as a public recreational area.
Our town has to be about sticking to a long term plan if we want to grow smart. We are not against development. We can't just go into the 21st century reacting to each and every developer that comes along. If so, every development in the future will be like this one and split the town apart. Our group feels development that is connected to our existing business district will serve all the best.
Regarding the 7000$. What was that fund for? Was it for buying the whole point, or just a portion of it, was it for a big part or a little part. What part was it for? Who would contribute to a fund that had no clear goal. Not I. That is the stance of many Lighthouse Point supporters. If only the city council had the backbone to declare an objective, it might be different. |
Citiboy
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:36 am: |
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If I recall correctly, the fund was initially established to help the city acquire as much of the point as it could. No one set the exact acreage or percentage, and the city council made clear that if the point was NOT acquired, the funds donated would be returned.
Now, let's do the math: If the originally reported value of $1.4 million dollars is divided by the approximate 54 acre size of the point property, and that number itself is divided into the $7,000 donation fund, that would buy the community slightly more that a quarter of an acre - about 11,700 square feet, or an area about the size of 2 and 1/3 of those 50' X 100' lots in the older sections of downtown.
Not many trees, not much trail, not much shore line, not much wildlife protection.
Has the Shield group ever stated what THEY would like to acquire with their donated funds? The entire point? Most of the point? A few acres? A few square feet?
Make a donation. Specify it's exclusive use. If what you've specifically donated the money for is NOT accomplished, your donation will be refunded.
Don't forget, please, that there are a number of other costs involved in acquiring that particular property: The existing leases, the environmental clean-up issues, to name just two. Someone has to pay for that - probably through a negotiated settlement on the sale price.
And $7,000 won't clean up much, will it?
Please remember that your city council is trying to look out for the best interests of the community as a whole - and has certain legal obligations and requirements it must abide by while doing so.
And unless you've held the office - or at least had the courage to run for it - I'd be a little less liberal with the cheap shots, if I were you.
But then again, I'm not you, am I?
I have the courage to sign my own name to what I post here: Can you say the same?
Steve Phillips |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 05:22 am: |
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Good man Steve! |
StreetWize
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 09:48 am: |
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SP - Look out for the whole, or just #1? |
smiley
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 09:13 am: |
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anything new going on with the lighthouse point? |
Citiboy
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 09:29 am: |
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SW - I'm puzzled:
"Look out for the whole (whole city?), or just #1 (Ward 1)?"
What exactly are you asking there? |
69in71
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 09:35 pm: |
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Is the confusing question directed to Citiboy as:Are you looking out for everbody, or just yourself? Just asking. Citiboy has always been straight up with me. |
choo choo
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 01:35 pm: |
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I heard Northern Rail Train Car Suites B&B, up cty rd 3 by Stewart River, has gone belly up. Any truth to this rumor? |
smiley
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 04:24 pm: |
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yes it has. i heard sammy wants to move it to a place in front of the depot. |
Progress Sweet Progress
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 05:03 pm: |
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Well the sign has said no vacancy for months so either they are belly up or making fat cash. I'm going to guess belly up. I though our esteemed city councilor Steve Phillips worked there. |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 09:38 pm: |
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choo choo..YEP, that's what I hear also. to bad, but it was a dumb location anyway. |
bassman
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 10:10 pm: |
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Might have been a dumb location, but a good idea. Maybe Mr. Cave will purchase them and move them down near the water. After all, T.H. was a good railroad town. Maybe all the naysayers would approve of that.... |
smiley
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 10:26 am: |
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nay |
fritz
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 08:30 am: |
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We had reservations at the RR Suites year before last but were disappointed when we checked in and had to walk away and find someplace else. Great idea and the place was cute but had tiny rooms. I had expected side buy side units, and they implied they were very close to the lake in some of their info packages. So get a better location closer to the water and make'em doublewide and it's a great idea. I stayed in a motel made out of old cabooses in Pennsylvania Dutch Country once and had a great time. |
No water contact
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 04:25 pm: |
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This sign posted at Burlington Bay Beach today.
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Observer
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 07:37 pm: |
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What is coliform and why should its presence in water be of concern?
Coliform is a family of bacteria common in soils, plants and animals. The coliform family is made up of several groups, one of which is the fecal coliform group, which is found in the intestinal tracts of warm-blooded animals including humans.
The presence of fecal coliform in drinking water or at swimming sites is evidence that human or animal waste has been or is present. This may be cause for concern because many diseases can be spread through fecal transmission.
The presence of some fecal material in lakes, ponds and rivers is to be expected as part of the environment in which we live. As long as the level of fecal coliform bacteria is low, swimming is relatively safe.
In drinking water, however, any fecal coliform presence is a warning sign that action should be taken.
What are the negative health effects of drinking or swallowing water that contains coliform bacteria?
Coliform or other bacteria in drinking or swimming water will not necessarily make you ill. However, since these organisms are present, other disease-causing organisms may also be present.
Health symptoms related to drinking or swallowing water contaminated with bacteria generally range from no ill effects to cramps and diarrhea (gastrointestinal distress). Two common waterborne diseases are giardiasis and cryptosporidiosis; both cause intestinal illness. E. coli 0157:H7 has also been associated with drinking contaminated water and can cause intestinal illness. In very rare cases, it can cause hemolytic uremic syndrome, a serious kidney condition.
Rainfall and snowmelt wash coliform bacteria into our waters and the presence of fecal material in lakes, ponds and rivers is to be expected.
Coliform bacteria are live organisms, however, and they can multiply rapidly or die off quickly, depending upon water temperature and other variables. When the level of coliform increases to a point where the water is considered contaminated, swimming should be banned and action should be taken. In Vermont, the health protective level of E.coli bacteria in recreational water is set at 77 organisms per 100 ml of swimming water. E. coli levels above this in swimming water could mean that other disease causing microorganisms are present.
How much coliform is acceptable in drinking water?
Any coliform presence in drinking water is cause for action.
Groundwater in a properly constructed well or spring should be free of coliform bacteria. If coliform is found in a well or spring, it generally means that surface water has somehow leaked into the water. This could happen if rain runoff or snowmelt makes its way into the well or spring through cracks in ledge outcroppings, gravelly soil, or sandy soil. It could also be due to poor construction or cracks in the well or spring casing.
Coliform bacteria may enter the water supply if rain or snow runoff pools around the well or spring casing, if the well or spring cover is not airtight, or if the pipe leading to the house is not properly inserted and welded or grouted into the well or spring. In addition, insects, snakes, mice or other creatures getting into the well or spring can cause contamination.
Improperly maintained treatment devices also can be a source of contamination. Home water filters and other water treatment devices should be changed and maintained in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations.
The presence of any fecal coliform in drinking water is of immediate concern as many diseases can be spread through fecal transmission. The risk of illness dictates that the water must be boiled to kill the organisms before it is safe to drink.
Boil for one minute all water to be used for drinking, cooking, ice cubes, baby formula, reconstituted juices, produce washing, and teeth brushing. Let dishes dry thoroughly before use. (Licensed restaurants and other facilities have additional requirements.) Bathing should pose no risk, although reasonable care should be taken to insure that children do not swallow water by sucking on washcloths or sponges. (These precautions should be taken if the drinking water tastes or smells unusual or is of unknown quality. If test results confirm that there is a problem, continue with all precautions until subsequent test results show absence of bacterial contamination.)
Swimming isn't a thought at this time of year..so I would say this is precautionary. |
No water contact
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 09:10 pm: |
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http://www.pca.state.mn.us/water/beaches/waterqualityresults.pdf
Burlington Bay levels were >500. Threshold is 126. Scary part is you don't really know how far above 500, just greater than 500. |
T�re
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 11:21 am: |
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A smart growth plan for the Two Harbors waterfront posted at:
http://www.lakecarvings.com/lhpshield.htm
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bassman
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 02:24 pm: |
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When do you plan on buying the land and starting your project???? |
Progress Sweet Progress
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 04:24 pm: |
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LOL, and where are you going to get the money, just a guess but $7,000 dollars isn't going to be enough LOL. Sorry couldnt resist. |
Observer
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 07:35 pm: |
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I think the good people of Two Harbors have been able to raise..what was that amount? Was it around $7,000. Gosh, that's just about enought to nothing.
Why don't we let Mr. Cave do his projects? What's wrong with the people in this town? |
Shield Supporter
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 09:48 pm: |
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Amen Tore! |
bassman
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 02:05 am: |
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If Amen means the end, I sure hope so. The city had drug this thing out too long. |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 05:24 am: |
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No fooling!....What the hell kind of a community do we have here? It's time to get new councilors and make "positive decisions" for the entire community, not just the special interest groups.
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Progress Sweet Progress
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:34 am: |
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AMEN ...Two Harborite. Enough is Enough. |
TH'er
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:40 am: |
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When and where is the June 8 meeting mentioned on the lpshield site? |
smiley
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 07:18 pm: |
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two harborite, are you not a special interest group? |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 07:09 am: |
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smiley - no, i represent the majority - who think it's time to move forward and make two harbors a destination and a beautiful city. honestly, i'm sick of pot holes, cracked side walks, nothing new, poor water lines, poor this and poor that - this city needs some new growth and expansion. sam cave is a breath of fresh air in a stale community.
i've lived here all my life (nearly 60 years) and quite frankly i am sick of you nay sayers - who don't want to see any thing happen in this community.
unfortunately it's been the tail wagging the dog - now it's time for the dog to wag the tail - and brush the crap out of the community. two harbors needs to be improved upon, cleaned up, refreshed and made into some more than a 2 bit town - filled with drunks, drug users, sluts, kids who are drug users and pigs.
it's time to move forward - maybe it's time for me to run for city council, because quite frankly the people who are there are only concerned about themselves and their small interest groups - except for steve.
it's time to move forward for a better community. we need to think about one another and not just a few selected special interest people.
enough of this piss bum mentality of the legion, the moose, the earth worm inn - how about a town filled with progress, success, beauty being exemplified, growth, some new business, more expansion of our residential areas.
we live as an undisovered jewel, and i'm tired of seeing it covered up.
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Senior
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 09:20 am: |
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Well said, Two Harborite. Someone asked me recently where all the "professional" people of Two Harbors are and why none of them see fit to be a part of the City Council and the decision making of our community. That was a good point. Where are the attorneys and the business owners? Why, for the most part, do none of those people run for City Council? Most communities can boast the fact that those people are indeed sitting in on the decision making. We are run by a rag tag band of blue collar people. Not that some of them aren't doing a good job of it,thats not my point here. My point is that there are people in this community who might have other angles and experience in more areas that might just be a huge benefit for our community. Yet none of them step forward. My intent was not to offend the current council, but to urge those in professional positions to jump on board. Their influence might be just what we need and their ability to relate to the Sam Caves of the world would be a boost to take us forward. |
Shield Supporter
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 01:16 pm: |
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I saw a lot of development in the previously posted webpage. There was a marina, several condo/motel sites and a restaurant. All with nice views of the harbor. Also there was lots of space to expand retail development. All located downtown which will bring life to the existing business district. Lots of open space and parks too. Whats wrong with that idea? |
bassman
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 02:30 pm: |
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It is an idea S.S., but who owns the land that it is proposed on????? |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 06:51 am: |
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Exactly! |
S.S.
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 08:57 pm: |
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Members of the council reminded Hubley that much of that waterfront property is owned by someone other than the city, and questioned how the city could plan for someone else�s property.
�We�ll have to talk with landowners about this vision and see how they respond,� Hubley said. �Major cities plan all the time for areas they don�t own. I don�t see why it can�t work with the people here.� |
Citiboy
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 11:58 pm: |
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"Senior": Good point!
One reason those professionals and business people choose not to become "involved" (at least, overtly) is that when they do, their livelihoods and businesses become targets of economic retribution: Outspoken minority factions are not willing to entertain a diversity of opinion, and find it necessary to "punish" differing opinion with crippling economic sanctions.
I know personally of one prominent business owner who suffered the loss of a month's income at his establishment, for daring to express enthusiasm for Sam Cave's preliminary ideas, and another who was threatened with the same punishment by members of the Shield group.
Now, before you Shield supporters take exception to this statement, let me tell you that another local business person - a member of the Shield group - called me to personally (and proudly, I might add) relate this information... relishing in the retelling of that evening's confrontation with this businessman - who dared to attend a Shield information meeting, after expressing interest in hearing what Sam Cave had to say!
(I must also add here that I do not believe that this attitude is representative of the majority of the Shield supporters, but in a small community like ours, it only takes the actions of a few to wreak considerable havoc on the lives of others - whether by economic boycott or personal innuendo.)
When I expressed my dismay to this Shield member, that the business owner had been treated so, I was told to "grow up... this is the way things are in Two Harbors: This is the REAL world!". I then advised this person that it was most certainly NOT the Two Harbors - intolerant and spiteful - I wanted my daughter to grow up in, and that to the best of my ability, I would do everything in my power to change that attitude.
I understand that there have been certain business people who've chosen to become active in civic affairs in the past, and that their efforts were met with reluctance at best, and outright rejection at worst.
Unless we - as a community - are willing to tolerate differing opinions (and celebrate the successes of others, rather than resent them), I see little reason to expect business owners and professionals to risk their livelihoods in service to an unappreciative community.
I, personally, have been grateful that to date I've received but a handful of harsh criticisms.
My personal situation - being chronically underemployed since moving to this community - has been both a blessing and a curse: On the one hand, it has been a financial struggle to provide for my family, but on the other hand I've not had to worry about losing my family's livelihood as a consequence of taking "unpopular" positions on sensitive issues.
I would hope that the community at large would express a welcome to (and encourage) experienced, successful professionals to represent them in local government and on committes and commissions. I would think that the dedication they've shown to work hard and succeed in their personal lives would be considered an admirable trait for similar success in community service.
Steve Phillips |
TH'er
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 07:27 am: |
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I, for one, am very pleased to have at least one thinking, reasonable man on our City Council. |
S.S.
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 02:10 pm: |
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Citiboy. The actions you report by one shield supporter are sad, and I agree were out of line. On the other hand I question how a business owner was able to attribute a months loss of income due to a alleged unspoken boycott.
I can only speak for myself, and I tell you I have continued my support of local business owners who I know are enthusiastic about developing Lighthouse Point. Even when they are pasting the plan "in my face" at the cash register.
Once more I'd like to say, the Shield Group is not against development, but is for smart growth. We are for the "comprehensive plan" which desires growth connected to the existing downtown business district. We are not for boycotting local businesses based on their slant toward development. We are not for sprawl. The development we are for, will be more beneficial to the business community than other plans which call for a new business district, separated from the existing. |
Two Harborite
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 05:13 am: |
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There you have it! Read the last couple entries and see the democratic actions of others in our community. Guess what? It's been that way since the early 1920's, and it needs to stop. We need to start thinking about one another, about our whole community and not just a select few people. If this mentality continues, Two Harbors will become a no name 'whistle stop' community. Can we afford to turn our backs on others who would come to our community and offer to spend millions of dollars not only for themselves but for us? I don't think so.
S. S., what is smart growth? Two Harbors sure as hell as not seen smart growth in my life time? |
smiley
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 08:36 am: |
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TH - you are part of the select few... |
Progress Sweet Progress
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 08:52 am: |
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And back in the real world... Two Harbors made it into the channel 10/13 News a man was stabbed in Two Harbors..and it happened behind the Landing...OH MY GOD someone call a emergency meeting of the city council we need to close all the bars, oh and the liquior store. Because they are contributing to crime and the deteroration of the moral fiber of Two Harbors.
LOL OK OK I'm sorry I got carried away. |
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